Newsgroup Creation FAQ - Revision history

Tristan Miller: link to polling techniques draft

2022-05-02T12:36:06Z

link to polling techniques draft

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:36, 2 May 2022
Line 194:		Line 194:
	== Creating and Interpreting Polls ==		== Creating and Interpreting Polls ==
	=== Will there be a poll taken about the proposal? ===		=== Will there be a poll taken about the proposal? ===
	* There is no hard-and-fast answer to this question. We hope to develop polling techniques to help us glean information about proposals, but at this time we do not require that every proposal employ a poll.		* There is no hard-and-fast answer to this question. We hope to develop [[polling\|polling techniques]] to help us glean information about proposals, but at this time we do not require that every proposal employ a poll.
	* It is wise for proponents to use every tool at their disposal, including polls, to publicize the fact that a new group is being discussed and may become a reality. The more people who have made a commitment to the idea beforehand, the greater the likelihood that the new group will be a success if it is created. A newsgroup with no news is no fun!		* It is wise for proponents to use every tool at their disposal, including polls, to publicize the fact that a new group is being discussed and may become a reality. The more people who have made a commitment to the idea beforehand, the greater the likelihood that the new group will be a success if it is created. A newsgroup with no news is no fun!
	* We strongly recommend that proponents build up a body of supporters for the proposal and encourage them to express their commitment to the proposal in news.groups. Proponents should keep a list of such positive posts, along with the poster's Usenet ID and the message-ID, as evidence that there is support from the Usenet community for the proposed group.		* We strongly recommend that proponents build up a body of supporters for the proposal and encourage them to express their commitment to the proposal in news.groups. Proponents should keep a list of such positive posts, along with the poster's Usenet ID and the message-ID, as evidence that there is support from the Usenet community for the proposed group.

Tristan Miller: Remove reference to abolished Usenet Volunteer Polltakers

2022-05-02T12:33:39Z

Remove reference to abolished Usenet Volunteer Polltakers

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:33, 2 May 2022
Line 194:		Line 194:
	== Creating and Interpreting Polls ==		== Creating and Interpreting Polls ==
	=== Will there be a poll taken about the proposal? ===		=== Will there be a poll taken about the proposal? ===
	* There is no hard-and-fast answer to this question. We hope to ~~[[UVP\|~~develop polling techniques]] to help us glean information about proposals, but at this time we do not require that every proposal employ a poll.		* There is no hard-and-fast answer to this question. We hope to develop polling techniques to help us glean information about proposals, but at this time we do not require that every proposal employ a poll.
	* It is wise for proponents to use every tool at their disposal, including polls, to publicize the fact that a new group is being discussed and may become a reality. The more people who have made a commitment to the idea beforehand, the greater the likelihood that the new group will be a success if it is created. A newsgroup with no news is no fun!		* It is wise for proponents to use every tool at their disposal, including polls, to publicize the fact that a new group is being discussed and may become a reality. The more people who have made a commitment to the idea beforehand, the greater the likelihood that the new group will be a success if it is created. A newsgroup with no news is no fun!
	* We strongly recommend that proponents build up a body of supporters for the proposal and encourage them to express their commitment to the proposal in news.groups. Proponents should keep a list of such positive posts, along with the poster's Usenet ID and the message-ID, as evidence that there is support from the Usenet community for the proposed group.		* We strongly recommend that proponents build up a body of supporters for the proposal and encourage them to express their commitment to the proposal in news.groups. Proponents should keep a list of such positive posts, along with the poster's Usenet ID and the message-ID, as evidence that there is support from the Usenet community for the proposed group.

Jason Evans at 15:07, 28 June 2020

2020-06-28T15:07:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:07, 28 June 2020
Line 201:		Line 201:
	=== How do I find the Message-ID? ===		=== How do I find the Message-ID? ===
	* Every newsreader provides different methods for viewing the headers of a post.		* Every newsreader provides different methods for viewing the headers of a post.
	* [http://moleski.net/dokuwiki/blog/finding_usenet_message-ids This tutorial] shows two methods for finding headers.		* [https://web.archive.org/web/20150129180437/http://moleski.net/dokuwiki/blog/finding_usenet_message-ids This tutorial] shows two methods for finding headers.
	=== What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup? ===		=== What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup? ===
	* This simply means that people will post to the newsgroup, and post on-topic messages. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the topic, or whether there is a lot of such discussion elsewhere. The goal of interest polls is to determine, so far as possible, whether people want to discuss the topic in Usenet. See [[traffic analysis\|the notes on Traffic Analysis]] for further information.		* This simply means that people will post to the newsgroup, and post on-topic messages. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the topic, or whether there is a lot of such discussion elsewhere. The goal of interest polls is to determine, so far as possible, whether people want to discuss the topic in Usenet. See [[traffic analysis\|the notes on Traffic Analysis]] for further information.

Jason Evans at 15:05, 28 June 2020

2020-06-28T15:05:57Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:05, 28 June 2020
Line 120:		Line 120:
	* The proposal will not be listed in the [[Announcements\|queue]] until it is published in [[n.a.n.]]		* The proposal will not be listed in the [[Announcements\|queue]] until it is published in [[n.a.n.]]
	=== How do I cross-post the RFD to more than five newsgroups? ===		=== How do I cross-post the RFD to more than five newsgroups? ===
	* ~~[//~~Provisional guess:~~//]~~ Since many servers will not circulate posts to more than five groups, the RFD may have to be posted to different distribution lists, each with fewer than five newsgroups on it.		* ''Provisional guess:'' Since many servers will not circulate posts to more than five groups, the RFD may have to be posted to different distribution lists, each with fewer than five newsgroups on it.
	* Such multi-posts may run foul of anti-spam filters that look for identical bodies.		* Such multi-posts may run foul of anti-spam filters that look for identical bodies.
	* Worst-case scenario: proponents post unique messages to each group in the affect list either giving the RFD in full or providing a pointer to where it may be found, with an invitation to join the discussion in [[news.groups.proposals]].		* Worst-case scenario: proponents post unique messages to each group in the affect list either giving the RFD in full or providing a pointer to where it may be found, with an invitation to join the discussion in [[news.groups.proposals]].

Sbonine: Propose in n.g.p not n.a.n

2011-12-21T17:50:49Z

Propose in n.g.p not n.a.n

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:50, 21 December 2011
Line 56:		Line 56:
	==Preparing an RFD ==		==Preparing an RFD ==
	=== How do I make a proposal? ===		=== How do I make a proposal? ===
	* You may inquire about a topic informally by [mailto:board@big-8.org e-mailing the Board] or [mailto:workgroups:mentors Group Mentors], by submitting a post to [~~news:~~news.~~announce~~.~~newgroups news.announce.newgroups~~], or ~~by making a post in~~ news.groups.		* You may inquire about a topic informally by [mailto:board@big-8.org e-mailing the Board] or [mailto:workgroups:mentors Group Mentors], or by submitting a post to [[news.groups.proposals]] or [[news.groups]].
	* If you are serious about creating a new Big-8 newsgroup, you will eventually have to develop a full-fledged [[RFD\|Request for Discussion (RFD)]] ~~in order to prepare for a vote on the proposal~~. Your first RFD need not be complete. Because the RFDs are archived by the name of the proposed group, a minimal RFD must have a proposed newsgroup name, some indication of the purpose and scope of the group, and someone who is willing to identify themselves as the proponent for the group.		* If you are serious about creating a new Big-8 newsgroup, you will eventually have to develop a full-fledged [[RFD\|Request for Discussion (RFD)]]. Your first RFD need not be complete. Because the RFDs are archived by the name of the proposed group, a minimal RFD must have a proposed newsgroup name, some indication of the purpose and scope of the group, and someone who is willing to identify themselves as the proponent for the group.
	* After the RFD is published in news.announce.newgroups, the remainder of the official discussion will take place in [[news.groups.proposals]].		* After the RFD is published in news.announce.newgroups, the remainder of the official discussion will take place in [[news.groups.proposals]].

Sbonine: Revise references to news.groups for consistency with rest of FAQ

2011-12-21T14:02:22Z

Revise references to news.groups for consistency with rest of FAQ

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:02, 21 December 2011
Line 44:		Line 44:
	* No.		* No.
	=== So how long do I have to wait? ===		=== So how long do I have to wait? ===
	* If you need help clarifying your thoughts and understanding the process, you may [mailto:board@big-8.org e-mail the Board], [mailto:mentors@lists.big-8.org e-mail Group Mentors], or bring up the topic in [~~news:~~news.groups news.groups].		* If you need help clarifying your thoughts and understanding the process, you may [mailto:board@big-8.org e-mail the Board], [mailto:mentors@lists.big-8.org e-mail Group Mentors], or bring up the topic in [[news.groups]] or [[news.groups.proposals]].
	* If you have read the core creation pages linked to from this page and feel ready to try your hand at writing a [[RFD\|Request for Discussion (RFD)]], you may submit it to [~~news:news.announce.newgroups~~ news.announce.newgroups] whenever you wish.		* If you have read the core creation pages linked to from this page and feel ready to try your hand at writing a [[RFD\|Request for Discussion (RFD)]], you may submit it to [[news.announce.newgroups]] whenever you wish.
	* You should browse some of the [http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=news.groups&as_usubject=RFD&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2004&as_maxd=26&safe=active recent RFD threads] using Google or another archive. The informal discussion of ideas for new newsgroups ~~takes place~~ in ~~news.groups, an unmoderated newsgroup, and most proponents are subjected to~~ fairly intense questioning about their proposal, their background on Usenet, their intentions, past posts they have made, etc. The better you understand the ~~news.groups~~ environment beforehand, the better prepared you will be to stay calm, sort out good advice from flames, trolls, jokes, crosstalk, complaints about the Board, thread drift, and the like, and develop an RFD that can then be submitted to n.a.n. and discussed further in [[news.groups.proposals]].		* You should browse some of the [http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=news.groups&as_usubject=RFD&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2004&as_maxd=26&safe=active recent RFD threads] using Google or another archive. The informal discussion of ideas for new newsgroups can result in fairly intense questioning about their proposal, their background on Usenet, their intentions, past posts they have made, etc. The better you understand the environment beforehand, the better prepared you will be to stay calm, sort out good advice from flames, trolls, jokes, crosstalk, complaints about the Board, thread drift, and the like, and develop an RFD that can then be submitted to n.a.n. and discussed further in [[news.groups.proposals]].

	== Questions about Other Hierarchies ==		== Questions about Other Hierarchies ==
	=== Why won't you help me create an alt.* group? ===		=== Why won't you help me create an alt.* group? ===

Sbonine: One | and a few * to correct level of bullet points

2010-07-15T14:04:10Z

One | and a few * to correct level of bullet points

Sbonine: Some missing for what should have been bullet points resulted in "*" in text rather than bullet point

2010-07-15T13:58:12Z

Some missing <cr> for what should have been bullet points resulted in "*" in text rather than bullet point

Moleski: /* Why isn't the group appearing on all news servers? */

2010-07-07T23:10:18Z

Why isn't the group appearing on all news servers?

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:10, 7 July 2010
Line 262:		Line 262:
	* Proponents are expected to remain active in publicizing the existence of the newsgroup and doing what they can to see that a large number of news servers carry the correct configuration information about the group.		* Proponents are expected to remain active in publicizing the existence of the newsgroup and doing what they can to see that a large number of news servers carry the correct configuration information about the group.
	=== Why isn't the group appearing on all news servers? ===		=== Why isn't the group appearing on all news servers? ===
	* The only power the Board has is to decide whether a new newsgroup gets added to the official list of newsgroups ([[Checkgroups]]). Many news servers will add the group. People will be able to post to the newsgroup. Google might even archive messages from the newsgroup. If a particular [[~~news_providers~~ news service provider]] does not carry the group, its customers may politely request that the new group be added to their lists. Each news administrator may wish to examine the traffic in Google or on other news servers in order to make a decision about adding the new group to the news server.		* The only power the Board has is to decide whether a new newsgroup gets added to the official list of newsgroups ([[Checkgroups]]). Many news servers will add the group. People will be able to post to the newsgroup. Google might even archive messages from the newsgroup. If a particular [[NSP\|news service provider]] does not carry the group, its customers may politely request that the new group be added to their lists. Each news administrator may wish to examine the traffic in Google or on other news servers in order to make a decision about adding the new group to the news server.

	=== What if my proposal was rejected? ===		=== What if my proposal was rejected? ===
	* If the Board rejects your proposal, we'll let you know why. We'll also tell you what, if anything, you can do to improve the proposal before asking us to reconsider it.		* If the Board rejects your proposal, we'll let you know why. We'll also tell you what, if anything, you can do to improve the proposal before asking us to reconsider it.

	[[Category:Group Creation\|FAQ]]		[[Category:Group Creation\|FAQ]]

Moleski: /* What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup? */

2010-07-07T23:08:59Z

What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup?

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:08, 7 July 2010
Line 195:		Line 195:
	* [http://moleski.net/dokuwiki/blog/finding_usenet_message-ids This tutorial] shows two methods for finding headers.		* [http://moleski.net/dokuwiki/blog/finding_usenet_message-ids This tutorial] shows two methods for finding headers.
	=== What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup? ===		=== What do you mean by a "well-used" newsgroup? ===
	* This simply means that people will post to the newsgroup, and post on-topic messages. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the topic, or whether there is a lot of such discussion elsewhere. The goal of interest polls is to determine, so far as possible, whether people want to discuss the topic in Usenet. See [[~~policies:rfd#traffic_analysis~~ the notes on Traffic Analysis]] for further information.		* This simply means that people will post to the newsgroup, and post on-topic messages. It has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the topic, or whether there is a lot of such discussion elsewhere. The goal of interest polls is to determine, so far as possible, whether people want to discuss the topic in Usenet. See [[traffic analysis\|the notes on Traffic Analysis]] for further information.

	=== What is the "Field of Dreams" argument all about? ===		=== What is the "Field of Dreams" argument all about? ===
	* The protagonist in the movie "Field of Dreams" was told, "If you build it, they will come." Many proponents have this kind of faith in their proposals. The idea seems so good and so worthy of discussion, they simply assume that the group will be well-used.		* The protagonist in the movie "Field of Dreams" was told, "If you build it, they will come." Many proponents have this kind of faith in their proposals. The idea seems so good and so worthy of discussion, they simply assume that the group will be well-used.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:04, 15 July 2010
Line 17:		Line 17:
	=== How long will this process take? ===		=== How long will this process take? ===
	* Proposals that resemble successful newsgroups and that have a topic that is already being discussed on Usenet in various groups may go through very quickly. Proposals that are entirely novel or very controversial may take much more time to sort out, especially if polling needs to be done on some aspects of the RFD or on the proposal as a whole.		* Proposals that resemble successful newsgroups and that have a topic that is already being discussed on Usenet in various groups may go through very quickly. Proposals that are entirely novel or very controversial may take much more time to sort out, especially if polling needs to be done on some aspects of the RFD or on the proposal as a whole.
	* The only clock in the process as it is currently envisaged is the five-day period of final comments before the Board votes on an RFD. As noted [[creation#what_happens_if_the_rfd_is_changed_during_the_final_discussion_period below]], that clock may be reset as need be.		* The only clock in the process as it is currently envisaged is the five-day period of final comments before the Board votes on an RFD. As noted [[creation#what_happens_if_the_rfd_is_changed_during_the_final_discussion_period\|below]], that clock may be reset as need be.
	* The minimum length of time is not likely to be less than two weeks; the maximum depends on the patience of the proponent and the Board.		* The minimum length of time is not likely to be less than two weeks; the maximum depends on the patience of the proponent and the Board.
	=== Why did you take my proposal off the active list? ===		=== Why did you take my proposal off the active list? ===
Line 71:		Line 71:
	=== What difference does it make to have an RFD published in n.a.n.? ===		=== What difference does it make to have an RFD published in n.a.n.? ===
	* Publication in news.announce.newgroups means that:		* Publication in news.announce.newgroups means that:
	* the Board is willing to entertain the proposal and make a formal decision on it;		** the Board is willing to entertain the proposal and make a formal decision on it;
	* the proposal is probably not going to be rejected out of hand (see the [[discouraged\|types of proposals that are discouraged]]);		** the proposal is probably not going to be rejected out of hand (see the [[discouraged\|types of proposals that are discouraged]]);
	* the Board thinks the RFD is sufficiently complete to allow further discussion and revisions. The bare minimum for publishing a proposal in n.a.n. is a proposed name for a newsgroup, some indication of its purpose and scope, and someone willing to be identified as the proponent.		** the Board thinks the RFD is sufficiently complete to allow further discussion and revisions. The bare minimum for publishing a proposal in n.a.n. is a proposed name for a newsgroup, some indication of its purpose and scope, and someone willing to be identified as the proponent.
	* further discussion will take place in [[news.groups.proposals]].		** further discussion will take place in [[news.groups.proposals]].

	=== Are all RFDs sent to n.a.n approved automatically? ===		=== Are all RFDs sent to n.a.n approved automatically? ===

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:58, 15 July 2010
Line 7:		Line 7:
	* The [[b8mb\|Big-8 Management Board]]. There is no longer a public vote on newsgroup proposals.		* The [[b8mb\|Big-8 Management Board]]. There is no longer a public vote on newsgroup proposals.
	=== What can I do to improve the chances that the Board will approve my proposal? ===		=== What can I do to improve the chances that the Board will approve my proposal? ===
	* Read this FAQ. There is a wealth of information here and if you follow the suggestions things will go more smoothly for the whole process.* The Board is looking for proposals that will result in healthy newsgroups. * The topic of the newsgroup is important; if no one wants to talk about it, there will be no discussion. * The name of the proposed group is important; it's the primary way that people find the discussion. * Perhaps the most important factor is having people who will actually use the newsgroup. The Board will gauge this interest by observing the discussion of the proposal. At least a few supporters must post in [[news.groups.proposals]] and indicate that they will use the proposed newsgroup. A healthy web forum is not support for a Usenet newsgroup; if potential participants don't actually show up in Usenet and demonstrate their support they're still considered "potential".		* Read this FAQ. There is a wealth of information here and if you follow the suggestions things will go more smoothly for the whole process.
			* The Board is looking for proposals that will result in healthy newsgroups.
			* The topic of the newsgroup is important; if no one wants to talk about it, there will be no discussion.
			* The name of the proposed group is important; it's the primary way that people find the discussion.
			* Perhaps the most important factor is having people who will actually use the newsgroup. The Board will gauge this interest by observing the discussion of the proposal. At least a few supporters must post in [[news.groups.proposals]] and indicate that they will use the proposed newsgroup. A healthy web forum is not support for a Usenet newsgroup; if potential participants don't actually show up in Usenet and demonstrate their support they're still considered "potential".
	=== How can I find out which proposals are currently under discussion? ===		=== How can I find out which proposals are currently under discussion? ===
	* Check [[news.groups.proposals]]. That's where discussions should be traceable.		* Check [[news.groups.proposals]]. That's where discussions should be traceable.
	* ~~The~~ [[~~Main Page~~\|~~first page of~~ this wiki~~]] has announcements about~~ RFDs.		* Check the current [[Announcements\|announcements]] on this wiki for information on RFDs.
	=== How long will this process take? ===		=== How long will this process take? ===
	* Proposals that resemble successful newsgroups and that have a topic that is already being discussed on Usenet in various groups may go through very quickly. Proposals that are entirely novel or very controversial may take much more time to sort out, especially if polling needs to be done on some aspects of the RFD or on the proposal as a whole.* The only clock in the process as it is currently envisaged is the five-day period of final comments before the Board votes on an RFD. As noted [[creation#what_happens_if_the_rfd_is_changed_during_the_final_discussion_period below]], that clock may be reset as need be.		* Proposals that resemble successful newsgroups and that have a topic that is already being discussed on Usenet in various groups may go through very quickly. Proposals that are entirely novel or very controversial may take much more time to sort out, especially if polling needs to be done on some aspects of the RFD or on the proposal as a whole.
			* The only clock in the process as it is currently envisaged is the five-day period of final comments before the Board votes on an RFD. As noted [[creation#what_happens_if_the_rfd_is_changed_during_the_final_discussion_period below]], that clock may be reset as need be.
	* The minimum length of time is not likely to be less than two weeks; the maximum depends on the patience of the proponent and the Board.		* The minimum length of time is not likely to be less than two weeks; the maximum depends on the patience of the proponent and the Board.
	=== Why did you take my proposal off the active list? ===		=== Why did you take my proposal off the active list? ===
	* If we do not hear from proponents via e-mail or see them active in [[news.groups.proposals]], we presume that they have abandoned their proposals. * If you are, in fact, continuing to work on your proposal, all you need to do is contact us by e-mail or through n.g.p and we will return your proposal to the active queue.		* If we do not hear from proponents via e-mail or see them active in [[news.groups.proposals]], we presume that they have abandoned their proposals.
			* If you are, in fact, continuing to work on your proposal, all you need to do is contact us by e-mail or through [[news.groups.proposals]] and we will return your proposal to the active queue.
	=== If my proposal is rejected, how soon can I try again? ===		=== If my proposal is rejected, how soon can I try again? ===
	* That depends on the reasons for the rejection.		* That depends on the reasons for the rejection.
Line 109:		Line 115:
	==Sumbitting the RFD to news.announce.newgroups ==		==Sumbitting the RFD to news.announce.newgroups ==
	=== Do I have to post my RFD in news.announce.newgroups (n.a.n.)? ===		=== Do I have to post my RFD in news.announce.newgroups (n.a.n.)? ===
	* Yes. For your proposal to be considered, you must eventually submit it as an RFD to the moderators of news.announce.newgroups, but you don't need to start there. If you're not ready for a detailed RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, you can get the ball rolling by simply posting about your idea in news.groups.		* Yes. For your proposal to be considered, you must eventually submit it as an RFD to the moderators of news.announce.newgroups, but you don't need to start there. If you're not ready for a detailed RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, you can get the ball rolling by simply posting about your idea in news.groups or [[news.groups.proposals]].
	* There are many helpful people ~~in news.groups~~ who will help you figure out if your proposal is a good idea, and if so, help you collect the information you need to put together an RFD and submit it to news.announce.newgroups.		* There are many helpful people there who will help you figure out if your proposal is a good idea, and if so, help you collect the information you need to put together an RFD and submit it to news.announce.newgroups.
	* The proposal will not be listed in the [[Announcements\|queue]] until it is published in [[n.a.n.]]		* The proposal will not be listed in the [[Announcements\|queue]] until it is published in [[n.a.n.]]
	=== How do I cross-post the RFD to more than five newsgroups? ===		=== How do I cross-post the RFD to more than five newsgroups? ===
Line 153:		Line 159:
	==Discussing the RFD ==		==Discussing the RFD ==
	=== Do I have to discuss my RFD in news.groups.proposals? ===		=== Do I have to discuss my RFD in news.groups.proposals? ===
	* Yes. Proponents must follow the discussion in n.g.p and make a reasonable case for their RFD. * Proponents may, at their discretion, discuss the proposal in other newsgroups.		* Yes. Proponents must follow the discussion in n.g.p and make a reasonable case for their RFD.
			* Proponents may, at their discretion, discuss the proposal in other newsgroups.
	* When discussing the RFD in other groups, proponents should take care to see that their remarks and answers to ''significant questions'' appear in n.g.p as well. The definitive discussion of the proposal takes place in [[news.groups.proposals]]. Neither the board nor other interested parties should be expected to trawl Usenet looking for fragments of the discussion.		* When discussing the RFD in other groups, proponents should take care to see that their remarks and answers to ''significant questions'' appear in n.g.p as well. The definitive discussion of the proposal takes place in [[news.groups.proposals]]. Neither the board nor other interested parties should be expected to trawl Usenet looking for fragments of the discussion.
	=== Who decides what is a "significant question"? ===		=== Who decides what is a "significant question"? ===