From: The Big-8 Management Board <>
Subject: 2nd RFD: news.groups.removals (LAST CALL FOR COMMENTS)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, news.groups.proposals
Followup-To: news.groups.proposals
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:28:43 -0500

                      REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of the
unmoderated Usenet newsgroup, news.groups.removals.


The B8MB plans to begin voting on this proposal after five days.  Please
offer any final discussion or comments before the end of this waiting
period.  Voting may take up to one week (7 days); a result will be posted
following the end of the voting period.

All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.proposals.

The full group creation procedure is documented here:

NEWSGROUPS LINE: news.groups.removals

news.groups.removals	Discussion of
proposed newsgroup removals.


Most of the discussion was whether news.groups would be sufficient for
the purpose of discussing removal of unmoderated newsgroups rather
than creation of a news.groups.removals.

First it should be understood that the intent is that any discussion
occur in the group that might be removed.  In many cases, there may be
no discussion.  But when there is discussion, the discussion itself
would give additional notice to any lurkers who did not see any of the
three RFD's or ignored them.

The cross-post to news.groups.removals would provide a common place to
observe the discussion.  It is fully expected that the B8MB will also
observe any discussion that occurs solely in the groups proposed for

It does not matter whether news.groups.removals exists on the server
where a reader of the low-traffic group posts.  A cross-posted article
will propagate.

There would be problems if the moderated news.groups.proposals was
used, or if news.groups.removals were moderated.

This proposal would move newsgroup removal discussion from
news.groups.proposals where it is currently held to
news.groups.removals.  It would be confusing to move some discussion
of news groups changes back to news.groups.

RATIONALE: news.groups.removals

This proposed newsgroup is complementary to implementation of the
proposed policy for removing extremely low-traffic unmoderated
newsgroups that is currently being discussed in news.groups.proposals.

When a newsgroup is proposed for removal, it is an imperative that any
users of the newsgroup have the opportunity to discuss and understand
the reasons for removal, to object to the group's removal, or to
propose alternatives to removal.

Currently, discussion of newsgroup removals occurs in
news.groups.proposals (NGP), a moderated newsgroup.  If NGP does not
exist on a particular user's news server, then it is difficult, if not
impossible for the user to submit their articles for approval.
Further, some objections removing a newsgroup may not satisfy NGP
standards of civility.  If someone fears that "their group" is about
to be removed, they may not express their opinion in the most polite
manner, but they should not be excluded from the discussion.

An unmoderated newsgroup, news.groups.removals, addresses these two
issues.  As an unmoderated newsgroup, articles would not need to be
approved.  In addition, discussion will be cross-posted between
news.groups.removals and the candidate group for removal.  This will
ensure propagation of articles, even if news.groups.removals does not
exist on some news servers.  The cross-posting of the discussion to
the candidate group will maximize visibility of a proposed newsgroup

While there is less utility in having an unmoderated management group
for discussion of a proposed removal of a moderated newsgroup,
news.groups.removals will be used for such proposals to avoid
confusion over the name or which group is to be used.

While the unmoderated newsgroup news.groups could also serve the role,
I think it is preferable to have a newsgroup for specific proposed
removals that parallels the use of news.groups.proposals.  news.groups
would continue to be used for more general discussion about
newsgroups, including overall policy issues, etc.


The newsgroup news.groups.removals is used for discussion of proposed
removal of specific Big-8 newsgroups.  Only removals that have been
formally proposed in news.announce.newgroups shall be discussed.

Discussion relating to policies regarding newsgroup removals,
tentative discussion of potential newsgroup removals, etc. should
occur in news.groups.

Discussion relating to newsgroup removals that are part of a larger
re-organization should be posted in news.groups.proposals.  The
moderators of news.groups.proposals may approve cross-posts to
news.groups.removals about those parts of a re-organization that
relate specifically to the removal of a newsgroup.

Discussion about the removal of a specific unmoderated newsgroup
should be cross-posted between the newsgroup proposed for removal and
news.groups.removals.  RFD's proposing removals should set the
Followup-To header to news.groups.removals and the group proposed for
removal.  Other relevant newsgroups may be included in the cross-post.

Discussion about the removal of a specific moderated newsgroup should
be posted to news.groups.removals.  Other relevant newsgroups may be
included in a cross-post.


This document has been posted to the following newsgroups:

  news.announce.newgroups (moderated)
  news.groups.proposals (moderated)


Jim Riley <>


2007-06-28     1st RFD
2007-08-05     2nd RFD/LCC